I.Am.Livid. Do you have no heart?

I just came across a blog where the mama wrote about the recent death of her baby boy. This baby boy had CHD (congenital heart defect), which resulted in death. But this baby boy was also circumcised and had bleeding issues… that may have contributed to the death. Yes, I cried. Yes, I searched through her blog to read more. Then I discovered all the talk around the web about it. And I became pissed.

THIS MOTHER JUST LOST HER SON. HER BABY.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT CIRCUMCISION.

I don’t care if you circumcised your son or if you didn’t. I’ll be honest: I circumcised Ryan. But with all I know about it now, I would never circumcise again. So I’ve been on both sides of the fence. This mother made her decision that her and her husband believed to be the best for their son. Obviously they would not wish this fate upon him. Obviously this mama feels enough guilt and regret as it is.

Why am I livid? The unbelievably inconsiderate assholes that are attacking this poor mama for circumcising her son. She’s being called selfish.. her faith in God is being questioned… people are telling her that she was warned. Seriously? Have you no heart? I don’t give an eff if you’re the Queen of the Intactivists and you know everything there is to know about circumcision and why it’s wrong. Get off your effing high horse. This is not your place. It is NOT the time to spew your hate and your facts and your belittling comments to a grieving mother.

That’s great that you stand for something… that you feel so strongly about something and want to make a difference. But to a family that just lost their baby boy? Get a fucking life. And if you want to pick on someone, pick on me. I circumcised Ryan.

Other friends share their thoughts on the issue:
Little BGCG: chd, not circumcision.
Mama B: People Suck.

34 comments to I.Am.Livid. Do you have no heart?

  • There is NO excuse for this completely inhuman behavior, but I’m so not surprised by some of the people who run in that crowd. They will stop at nothing, even if it means bullying a freshly grieving mother who did NOTHING to them. It’s terrorism – plain and simple.

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  • AMEN. I am disgusted and heart broken by all of this. What a world we live in, huh.

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  • I cannot believe this! I have spoken with other mothers who shared personal tragedies online with their very close communities only to be torn apart by heartless fiends. I cannot understand one iota why they do this – how can you live with your conscience after kicking a mother when she is experiencing the worst pain known to human kind?

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  • When I had my csection and blogged about it, I never imagined in a million years that I would get attacked for hating my csection and being depressed about it. I was devastated. I couldn’t believe there were people out there who seemed to be just waiting to tear me apart. And now this? This is a million times worse. The human race fails me again.

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    Octavia Reply:

    That’s so true babydickey, I too felt the pain and depression of a c/s! Thank God for the ICAN! And I agree with this blog!!!

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  • i think it is horrifying. I will say that i havent’ read the comments, my 2 mos postpartum emotions can’t take it. I have read a couple of twitter ppl and the actual blog posts.

    Here is my question that I don’t knwo if the assholes are asking:
    I don’t understand why people are blaming the parents. It sounded to me like they wanted to do it and the doctors PUSHED them to do it asap instead of waiting. I guess I dont’ get why the drs didnt’ tell them to wait until after his heart was fixed. To me it sounds like the doctors were at fault for pushing them into it, honestly. It reminds me a bit of people who are pushed into a c-section and then it gets coded as “elective”.

    That’s my only question/anger/issue. It’s not at the poor parents at all. I am keeping them in my prayers.

    And just so you know, some of my friends who have circed their first boy and then gone on to never do it again are the most effective, loving, and kind intactivists because they have btdt. 🙂

    sorry for typos, I am typing while nursing a 19mo and a 2 mo at the same time, it is not as easy as it looks. 😉

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  • Holy moly… I couldn’t agree with you more. Ugh.

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  • LEAH:
    WOW! Nursing two AND typing! I need a picture! lol.

    I agree, I’d be angry at the doctors. These parents trusted their doctor and the medical staff… as most people do. As I trusted my doctor who did just as you mentioned and pushed a csection on me. I know a csec and death don’t compare AT ALL, but although I am angry with my doctor, I still blame myself. In the end, I did consent. You know? Which is where ALLLLL of this poor mama’s guilt is going to come from. So these assholes don’t need to rub her face in it. And it goes to show what an amazingly strong woman this mama is – she specifically wrote on her blog to not be angry with the doctor, it’s not the time.

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  • @chambanalaura RT’d this post and that’s how I’m here. Wonderful and beautiful, post!!

    What? Seriously? A mother is burying her infant son and people are getting all high and mighty about circumcision? Do they not have anything else to spew divisive hate about? Isn’t Bin-Laden on the loose or medical marijuana being sold in their neighborhood? Something, anything!

    I don’t care if the baby bled to death b/c of being circumcised, it’s none of anyone’s business. And to be clear, I’ve yet to read about ANY connection between circumcision and CHF.

    An infant died. A mother must bury her child. These haters need to back off because karma’s a bitch!

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  • I agree, and I don’t think any of the anger should be at the mom. I think there is a legitimate question of why our culture deems it SO important that it should be pushed for a baby that is so weak anyway. But obviously there is a lot of fail in any activist group, as shown in this case by the douchenozzles attacking the parents. 🙁

    http://flic.kr/p/8GWaXk (You asked ;-))

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  • Claire

    I blame the doctors 100%. Looking back at her previous posts he was clearly very, very sick and nowhere near stable (she posted on Oct 3 that his sats were in the 60s and had crashed in the past few days. that is not a child that needs unnecessary surgery. Not that any child needs unnecessary surgery, but you’d think they would realise this was not a good idea on this child, right now. But noooo, they were telling the mama it needed to be done TODAY!)

    I don’t agree with circumcision, but I don’t think the mama needs any more guilt heaping on her than I’m sure she already does. She has got to live with that decision for the rest of her life. I do think the circumcision contributed although it was clearly not the sole cause of death. I think for many parents though they think the fact that the doctor says it is ok to do means that it is safe when it clearly isn’t.

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  • In recent months, watching the viciousness of the Intactivist community has made me downright sick. This is just icing on the cake. ANYONE who is HARASSING a mother whose baby JUST died should question their own actions, and fitness as a parent.

    It is sad, and disgusting ANYONE even needed to write about this, or this is even an issue!

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  • Jan

    I’m as intactivist as they come, but how can anyone think attacking this poor mother is appropriate? The ONLY appropriate response when someone’s child has died is “I’m so sorry for your loss”. No one ever deserves to lose a child…

    Seriously, I only blame to doctors for allowing a child with a prior medical condition to undergo a noncritical surgery – even if a parent has made a mistake that contributes to their child’s death, don’t people realize the parents know this and are trying to survive their own guilt? Why would someone purposely hurt them and add to it?

    A neighbor recently accidently ran over her one year old baby, and it was absolutely horrific for their family – yet people commented on the news story about what a bad mom she must have been and how they would never do such a thing because they are so perfect. Why do moms feel the need to tear each other down when they are already grieving.

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  • Matt

    Had Joshua been born anywhere else in the world, this would not have happened.

    American culture and its insane obsession with cutting off the foreskin is to blame.

    My heart goes out to the victims, Joshua, his mother and their family.

    I did not and would never blame the mother, she did what she thought was best. I blame this stupid culture that insists on cutting off what God put there! Bleeding from circ let to his heart failure and death there is no way around that! THAT is what is sick. THAT should be condemned.

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    Christa Reply:

    hmm everywhere I go I see the say copy and pasted message. Would love if you said something new and original!

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  • Claire

    Matt, we don’t know for sure that was the case. While he didn’t need the surgery, he was extremely sick with a serious congenital heart defect and this may have happened sooner or later anyway. I do feel the circ was related, but of course the doctors won’t admit that as they don’t want to get sued.

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  • That mama needs a ton of hugs. She’ll figure out for herself whether circumcision was the right or wrong thing to do.

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  • This is sad. The only words anyone needs during a time like this is support and grieving with them. This is tragic. Just like when a family that suffers a tragic loss due to some kind of fire brought on by a fire hazard isn’t a good time to preach about fire safety to them, speaking to this mom this way is just cruel. It won’t bring her baby back or heal the family.

    That said, it can be used for educational purposes in more fitting settings. This tragedy wasn’t just because of circumcision, I hope that it impresses on many the need for increased education regarding circumcision and CHD, both need more attention to help save lives.

    But in relating to this woman, compassion, only compassion.

    By the way, I think breastfeeding advocates are viewed the same way when we say things like “at least there are never beetles in breastmilk” or “breastmilk doesn’t get recalled.” All of us, whatever our passion is, need to remember that we’re all human, all have feelings, all make mistakes, all love, all hurt, and are all trying to love our children as best we know how.

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  • kat

    I think that a responsible doctor should know better than to ever allow a circ on a child in neonatal ICU. weather or not the parents wanted it is besides the point here. A child lost his life, it is not the fault of the family, however obviously they trusted the doctor and the hospital and why medical professionals would risk this on a fragile child ??? I dont get it… and in my head seems like a Urologist should have been present to begin with …not called in later… is just another foul medical practice. It is unfortunate that people want to use it as anti circ thing…however it may serve to show that routine hospital circumcisions are just flat out dangerous… yes he died from CHD… but why in god’s name would the hospital allow the procedure…why didn’t they inform the parents and wait why why why why why…… I am so tired of people attacking sides on any issue… we all need to love and inform..and allow people to live as they choose… if you want to change something be PRO for that change..not anti anything

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  • ellabellasmama

    say it sister! i couldn’t agree with you more and i am very anti-circ!

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  • This makes me so sad! I already can imagine the people saying those words to that mother. It’s so funny to me that people who are on their high horse about their opinions have the nerve to throw that in people’s faces. Especially since they’re trying to “convert” people to their ways. Why would anyone want to be like THEM?

    Grrrr! I would write my own post about this but I won’t because I don’t swear and this is a topic that needs swear words to describe the jerk faces!!

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    babydickey Reply:

    Ha, that’s funny Jenn because I don’t swear either. My words of choice are “crap” or “frick” lol. But, as you said, THIS topic deserved the words!!

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  • Sarah

    I consider myself to be strongly ‘anti-circ’ and i think that attacking this mother is completely inexcusable. I really believe that parents make the best decisions they can based on the information they have and what is important to them. Circumcision is considered normal and acceptable in our society, irrespective of whether *i* think it should be, and perfectly good parents make the decision to circumcise, irrespective of whether or not that particular decision is well-informed. If we are going to judge each other as ‘bad mothers’ for every less-than-ideal decision we make, then we are all ‘bad’ parents. That means we shouldn’t be attacking *anyone* after the fact for this decision, and most especially not a mother whose baby just *died*. Compassion is more important than ‘being right’, and it’s the living who need compassion.

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  • Wow, this makes me so sad. I didn’t circumcise my son, I don’t find any reason for it. However, no matter how I feel about it, NEVER would I be so mean to a mama!!! EVER! Gosh, some people just need to be kicked in the gut! They are so terrible! There couldn’t possibly be anything worse than losing your baby, and then they have to rub it in her face and make her feel like it’s her fault. Bad Karma is all I have to say. Those people have got a lot of it! 🙁
    ~Amanda

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  • Rebecca M.

    My heart goes out to the family grieving the loss of their child. I can’t imagine their pain. And the fact is, the mother already DOES blame herself. No one else needs to place the blame on her. That will only make her son’s death even more difficult to accept and deal with. I think it’s pointless and yes, cruel, to write blog posts or Tweet about it just to villainize her at this point. The baby is gone. She already knows she was wrong. Nothing we say will bring the baby back.

    However, I think in our rush to defend her from “crazy intactivists,” we need to get the facts straight and not go so far on the other side that we start spreading untruths. To those who are trying to say the doctors forced her into this — not true. On her own blog, she states that she asked the doctors multiple times about doing the circumcision, and the doctors expressed concern about bleeding as the baby got older, but they were not pushing her into it AT ALL. The mother is the one who pushed for this to be done. Technically, NO doctors should be performing routine infant circumcision, because according to “first do no harm,” it would be unethical to perfom non-therapeutic, permanent cosmetic surgery on the genitals of a non-consenting child. So I don’t know why anyone thinks a doctor would suddenly develop any scruples about this.

    And I also disagree with those who are comparing this to an accident where a child is run over or drowned or whatever. This was not an accident. This was a choice that the parents made, to have cosmetic surgery performed on their already very sick and at-risk infant. There is absolutely no justification for it. Every parent should be doing the research before they make this choice, which isn’t even theirs to make — it’s the choice of the child, the person who owns the penis. But the information is out there, in many forms, and even right there on the consent form, listing all the risks, including the risk of death. Saying “I didn’t think this would happen” is no excuse. It was wrong from the beginning. So please don’t insult the parents who have lost babies in tragic accidents but saying this was unavoidable.

    I’m so disappointed to hear that you circumcised your son, Emily. But what’s done is done, and at least you won’t do it again. I’m not condemning you or saying you’re a “bad” mother so please everyone, put away the flame throwers. However, I’m really confused by you saying if you knew then what you know now, you wouldn’t have circumcised Ryan, either. I’ve read your posts from when you were pregnant and were considering circumcision. Many people helpfully posted in your comments section, providing you with the information you needed to see it as the ethical violation and dangerous, unnecessary cosmetic surgery that it is. How can you say you didn’t know? Maybe you didn’t WANT to know, but please don’t act like the information wasn’t available to you. Perhaps while we’re on the topic you could write an enlightening post to share why you made that decision for Ryan and what you’ve learned in the interim that changed your mind. You could really help some other parents preparing to welcome a baby boy, and could help those of us who support genital integrity to see where our attempts to change minds are falling short.

    Here are some of your posts with comments sharing the facts, for those who think I’m off-base:

    http://babydickey.com/2009/11/12/vaccines-and-circumcision/

    http://babydickey.com/2009/11/19/interviewing-a-pediatrician/

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    babydickey Reply:

    ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh…….. yes. I have been meaning to write a circumcision post for quite some time. Reading your sentence that you’re disappointed made me cry. No, I’m not mad at you and no I don’t think you’re being unfair or anything. You’re completely right. I did post about this while I was pregnant and people did inform me of the risks, etc. You are exactly right–I did not WANT to know. I cry every time I think about it. How far I’ve come. I’ve been meaning to write the post for a long time, but am terrified of the comments I will receive… of people attacking me… when I am already punishing myself and know what we did was wrong. I don’t think I’m yet able to handle those comments. Does that make sense? But I will write it. I know it could help others. And maybe with this whole situation, now is a good time to write it. Sigh.

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    Rebecca M. Reply:

    I’m sorry to hear that my comment made you cry. I really do have compassion for moms who chose to have their sons circumcised then later learned more and now regret it. I can’t imagine carrying around those feelings. It’s such a permanent thing. And then to have to face the hard discussions with your first son, if you don’t circ future sons? Very, very hard. When I think about Nicholas being intact I feel happy for him, but I also, selfishly, feel RELIEVED that I did know what I knew, that I had given it so much thought (long before I was pregnant), and that I didn’t make what I feel would have been a mistake. I hope this isn’t coming across as condescending, because I honestly don’t mean it to be. I know so many AWESOME moms who put tons of care and thought into so many areas of their parenting, but have either never thought about circumcision, or will even actively defend the practice when presented with facts. It’s hard for me to understand, being on this “side” of the debate, but I know that everyone’s path to understanding is different. I was exposed to the information and ideas that led me to a belief in genital integrity, but if I hadn’t been — who knows?

    Anyway, ((hugs)) to you. I understand why you would hesitate to write the post — you’ve had some really ignorant, defensive, and hateful comments on other topics before. But I have read some great posts on other blogs, from parents who circ’ed their son(s) then changed their view, and they seem to get a lot of supportive, compassionate comments. I can find & send you some links on Twitter if you’d like.

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    TheFeministBreeder Reply:

    Rebecca – there are many, many reasons that even the most intelligent woman circumcises her first, or second, or ALL of her sons, and not all of them can be argued away with science. I circ’d my first because it never occurred to me not to. Also? I was once with a man who wasn’t circ’d and he smelled absolutely AWFUL. It was atrocious. So just like a huge percentage of Americans, I thought circ’ing was the cleanest thing to do.

    With my second, I knew there was a question about whether it should be done, but I had no idea how to not circ the second when it was done to the first. I felt that there would be too many questions – as in “Mommy, why does my pee pee look different than my baby brothers?” and what was I gonna say “Oh, because Mommy’s a stupid moron.” No, not a conversation I wanted to have, and the thought didn’t go beyond that because frankly I spent so much time in my pregnancy just trying to have a VBAC that I didn’t put any real thought into anything other than that.

    So now, I’ve had time to think, and I know much better. But no terrorism could have convinced me not to do what I did, and it certainly isn’t helping anybody’s case now. I won’t circ because I have more time and education now to prepare for the tough conversations my kids may want to have with me. But I don’t judge parents who haven’t reached that point. Educate gently, then walk away. That’s all we can do. If those parents make different choices for their kids, then they live with that – not us.

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    Rebecca M. Reply:

    Gina, I got this reply via e-mail last night. I thought it was so eloquent, and I really appreciated it. The e-mail didn’t have a name, so I didn’t realize it was from you. I’m not surprised to find out you’re the author! (Yes I’m kissing your butt here.) But seriously, hearing the stories of moms who have circumcised one or more sons before becoming anti-circ, does help me to understand, be more compassionate, and learn how to be a better advocate.

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  • Tiffany

    I agree with all of you. This is atrocious. Jill, my prayers and tears go out to your family and I pray that God gives you peace and healing. I can’t imagine what you must be going through.

    On an off-topic note, why was Joshua on methadone? Is that a treatment for CHD? I was just curious, and I hope I don’t offend anyone by asking this question.
    Thank you

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  • People are often too concerned with their own agenda to be bothered with having compassion for others.
    It’s cold, callous, and terrible..

    We really would require more from the human race than this sort of heartless foolishness

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  • Jen

    I don’t know a single intactivist who is without deepest sympathy for this mother and family. That said, it is a sad reality that almost all circumcision deaths get charted as either A. cardiac arrest or B. blood-loss. It is also a fact that circumcision is contraindicated in babies with preexisting heart conditions. Please understand that I do NOT make these statements for the purpose of placing blame. I actually would have to place more blame on the doctors if I were to be looking for someone to blame. However, I’m not looking for blame here, rather, making it known that we need to start correctly documenting circumcision deaths. One of the largest problems we have with finding out actual numbers of deaths resulting from circumcision is that doctors do not reporting the deaths as caused by circumcision. They simply report them as “cardiac arrest” or “blood-loss” (which was caused by the surgery) and we lose a valuable statistic that could be used to protect more baby boys. If parents don’t have a clear understanding of the true risk, b/c we have not been able to provide reliable statistics concerning the risk, then they aren’t truly getting informed consent when they sign off on genital reduction surgery. The goal here is to have transparency so that parents can make the absolute best decision. These statements in no way take away from the loss and pain this family is suffering. This is no time for blame! However, if we simply stop asking questions of the hospital and doctors responsible then we have done nothing to prevent future losses and tragedies such as these. It isn’t about “shutting the fuck up” (as one blogger put it) it is about having compassion and empathy while taking a moment to really examine the evidence. Progress can’t happen with our heads buried in the sand and too many lives have already been lost to ignore the evidence.
    Warmest Regards,
    Jen

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  • Paula

    I really can’t think of anything that wouldn’t seem short of what I am feeling for this mother, other than my prayers are with you and your family. I think that it is so terrible that people would be so unfeeling and down right mean, to try to hurt the family further with their shallow, cold and cruel comments. I pray that something like this NEVER happens to them, cause sometimes we reap what we sow. 🙁

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